General tape / cassette talk here.

Moderators: lazyben, static14, texasvinyl

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By maxlevel
#114038
In my recent mixtape adventures I’ve discovered that not all tapes are created equal, and am now getting information about different chemical formulas. Hopefully this will lead to less tape chews, and more settled playback. Annoyingly I have also discovered my Nakamichi does output to record, but the amplifier I’m using does not allow tape to record. Wtf was my exact response. But I never bought my amp wth tape in mind. In fact, I couldn’t have imagined ever needing it until very recently. Anyway this means I have to use my D6C which has no bias control and fine detail recording functions.

I have always used sa-90, and recently a few cheap and cheerful type 1 but the results have been a bit shit.

So here’s what I have so far: Tapeline sell blanks of various kinds, odd rare tapes and little bits and pieces if you were to release your own tapes of your band or something. But Cassette Comeback who sell loads of blanks are also selling a brand new tape from the NAC for a few £. Brand new, as in, tape was stopped and it’s been restarted with new specs.

https://www.tapeline.info/v2/
https://www.cassettecomeback.com/collec ... st-selling
https://www.cassettecomeback.com/collec ... 56-2018-us

I bought the new NAC and some other ones. Will report back.
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By Mateo Sanboval
#114046
Max, I feel your pain! I use my D6 for recording now as well since my new amp doesn't have a proper tape in. I knew that going in, but it is still a bummer. Also, please do report back on your findings regarding the "new" tape quality. I'm very interested.

PS - While not US Americans, https://www.duplication.ca/ has a lot of goodies just north of our border. A good amount of my musically inclined pals use them.
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By inksb
#114049
That's actually who I currently use and their shipping isn't terrible either. I like them a lot but just curious if he found other sources.
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By maxlevel
#114054
@inksb the NAC is based in Missouri I think but: they only sell boxes of 100. It may be worth an email to see if they can point you towards a more friendly stockist... apart from the new NAC c456 there is also Fox 60 which can be bought in singles here: https://www.recordingthemasters.com/sto ... 60-type-1/ I hear that this tape is excellent also, but I’m not 100% if it’s a new mixture as it’s based on an old version...

@mateo I know right! Why the fuck can’t you just record the signal into the amp. I mean, I can just take the feed from the other output but I actually can’t be bothered to pull the stereo out and start changing cable paths. Grr

@scojo high five
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By maxlevel
#115396
So last few weeks have been an adventure in tapes. As it stands there are 4 new tapes about to be released, or have just been released for 2019. ATR Magnetics have unreleased new tape currently being dipped and loaded. NAC are shipping samples and widely available, Splicit have a tape and RTM Fox is already out too. So there’s a number of new formulas, and I’ve tried NAC and RTM. Both are good, but Fox is currently best. NAC is ok, it’s just more noisy and more dropouts. Not an issue for a Walkman, more an issue for trying to make amazing copies of your unplayable vinyls.

I’ve also worked out what Bias circuits are. As the tape passes the magnetic head during record, the field pulls the chemicals in the tape into memory. The hiss you hear on a tape is frequencies from the chemical formula which have been pulled as part of the recording, and as the tape moves out of the field there is a reaction. Bias circuitry (type 1, type 2 switch on your decks) adds a small voltage at that point where the influence of the record head ends, which lowers the hiss as the tape is less disturbed. Different formulas require more or less voltage and you can tune the deck to the tape with some decks, called negative Bias control. The tape type selector is a blunt instrument for this process; it’s just adding voltage in order to reduce hiss caused by magnets influence, but it’s also pretty useful even though it’s not precise. HX Pro is where the machine actively tunes the deck during playback to account for those chemical variations which occur as part of manufacturing. You dip the tape, it dries unevenly.

Cassette comeback has an excellent range of tapes and lots of useful information. ATR are selling a old stock of tape in new packaging for £50 a box, which is the same tape as other, older tapes half the price. So you can get ripped off n my opinion. I just bought six used Sony tapes for £4, which sealed go for £10 each. People treat sealed tapes like fine wines, to be used never. A guy today on stereo2go bought a ten Maxell box for $70 and each tape is worth £35 to a collector. Tapeline sells used tdk sa90 for £1, sealed can be £8. The only advantage of a sealed tape if just making tapes for a Walkman is to sniff it as you break the seal, it’s a nice smell.

So that’s my adventure in blank tapes. Now I need a new hobby as this one is exhausted!
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By Mateo Sanboval
#115418
Max, great info here. Thank you for the deep dive. Hope you didn't catch the bends on your way up for air.
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By maxlevel
#115455
@mateo and bez ,

definately got the bends!

As a brief addendum to above, its really easy to find high end tape unsealed for £1. I suspect this won’t last. One guy today is selling 300 type 2 blanks with old music on for £10 broken into various lots. All recording decks will erase before record so that’s no big deal, and you won’t hear the old music. The only problem is you have to pick them up. But that is a total steal. Combine these prices with a bit of learning about tape decks and it’s a totally viable, affordable hobby. At this stage if you’re paying £50 for a blank you won’t use, why not get hold of a used one for nothing?

As for new hobby, I thought about minidisc as it’s a great format. But it’s so expensive.
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By Mateo Sanboval
#115459
I have a friend who got deep into the MD game. It was cool, but, as you say, pricey
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By maxlevel
#115491
@mateo it’s such a great format. I guess that’s why it’s so expensive..

These arrived this morning, under £1 each and mostly £10 new/sealed

Image
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By maxlevel
#115496
@bez Theres an audible difference between the type 1 maxell UR and type 2 chrome mix tdk SA which you can still both get freely for decent prices. The tdk has much nicer bass, much nicer highs and very easy to record onto. The UR I’ve had to watch the levels a lot more, bringing up quieter tracks and taking down hotter ones so there is clearly a better dynamic range in type 2. That said, there are type 1 which are as good as type 2 SA-90 like the rtm Fox mentioned, very nice and warm and easy to use for general, running about. I think there’s probably a fair amount of overlap - most decks made after 1980 are factory calibrated for tdk sa-90 or something equivalent and what happened was people found they could make better tapes at home than buying prerecorded tapes for a lot more. Prerecorded tapes are generally type 1 unless stated, like orchestral tapes will be chrome for the dynamic range and you can really hear the difference; Horner’s Aliens release on Varèse is chrome. I taped some jazz drumming to type 2 and it’s not awesome, just average. I’ve also found that synth is often type 1.

I think the truth is that the mastering of any tape correctly it can be really really great, and using expensive tapes means you can relax more during that mastering. Newer decks with auto bias functions, fine tuning etc allows those tiny details to be brought out, that shitty symbol or fast piano turn is going to be better. I always like that story about Bowie who couldn’t play the entire piano on life on mars so he got rick wakeman in to perform the impossible sequences. You want to hear that, you need great mastering and that takes effort.
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By Bezulsqy
#115500
maxlevel wrote:@bez Theres an audible difference between the type 1 maxell UR and type 2 chrome mix tdk SA which you can still both get freely for decent prices. The tdk has much nicer bass, much nicer highs and very easy to record onto. The UR I’ve had to watch the levels a lot more, bringing up quieter tracks and taking down hotter ones so there is clearly a better dynamic range in type 2. That said, there are type 1 which are as good as type 2 SA-90 like the rtm Fox mentioned, very nice and warm and easy to use for general, running about. I think there’s probably a fair amount of overlap - most decks made after 1980 are factory calibrated for tdk sa-90 or something equivalent and what happened was people found they could make better tapes at home than buying prerecorded tapes for a lot more. Prerecorded tapes are generally type 1 unless stated, like orchestral tapes will be chrome for the dynamic range and you can really hear the difference; Horner’s Aliens release on Varèse is chrome. I taped some jazz drumming to type 2 and it’s not awesome, just average. I’ve also found that synth is often type 1.

I think the truth is that the mastering of any tape correctly it can be really really great, and using expensive tapes means you can relax more during that mastering. Newer decks with auto bias functions, fine tuning etc allows those tiny details to be brought out, that shitty symbol or fast piano turn is going to be better. I always like that story about Bowie who couldn’t play the entire piano on life on mars so he got rick wakeman in to perform the impossible sequences. You want to hear that, you need great mastering and that takes effort.
I read about that calibrating part somewhere. Is it called adjusting the azimuth? I know that high end tape decks (Nak Dragon) can adjust the heads because every type of tape or brand has a slightly different setup. I have the Beocord 9000 that can do that automatically: https://beocentral.com/beocord9000
The Beocord 9000 offered a number of extra features over the 8002 and 6000, and despite looking similar both inside and out, the 9000 was massively more complicated and very few parts were interchangeable. Principle amongst these features was the CCC (computer controlled calibration) system, which optimised bias, equalisation, sensitivity and VU meter calibration for any cassette automatically. To be able to do this in a reasonable amount of time, 3 heads were fitted, the record and replay heads being mounted in a common housing (unlike the earlier 3 head version of the Beocord 5000). The computer controlled a built in signal generator and attenuator system which recorded a short toneburst on the tape, measured the results and set itself accordingly to make quality recordings. A maximum bandwidth of 22KHz was claimed, the best ever for a cassette Beocord. The winding of the tape, recording and playback that was required for the calibration process took place automatically, and could be combined with the measurements for the real-time tape counter (like that fitted to the rest of the models in this series) if desired. As the playback channel was used in the CCC process, it was required to be particularly accurate. Complex adjustments were required to match the electronics to the head, and the value of one particular capacitor had to be decided upon by measurement. The CCC system could even use Ferrichrome tape, something that no other Beocord was optimised to do. Ferrichome was unusual in Europe, so a Sony tape was recommended for this position.
It also has Dolby C:
Another new and unique feature was the Dolby C type noise reduction. This technique was capable of 20dB of noise reduction, as opposed to 10dB with Dolby B. The noise reduction circuit was very complex and used 12 integrated circuits.
I have tried making a tape with it, but unsuccesfully. Not sure if the machine needs maintenance or it has to do with the receiver that does not transfer the sound from my turntable through the tapedeck. I should give it another go.

All the above numbers do not mean a lot for me, but I have the idea they might say more to you. For me it all sounds very impressive :-)

edit:

Here the azimuth thing (not automatically... )
Uniquely, the Beocord 9000 user was encouraged to adjust the head azimuth of the machine to match whatever tapes were being played. A hole by the cassette tray allowed access to the screw, which had a finer thread than was usual to aid accurate setting. A non-magnetic screwdriver was provided to make the adjustment (the same type that was included with pickups for tightening the fixing screws), as was an alignment tape, recorded on a top quality TDK MA-R cassette, so that the settings could be returned to their original position. Early versions of the alignment tape had a single 12.5KHz tone recorded on them, later ones had “white noise”, as this was found easier to use.
And there is this:
The standardisation of cassette tapes by the IEC made CCC largely redundant, and as a top quality “no compromise” machine, Beocord 9000 was not replaced by another model.
User avatar
By maxlevel
#115503
Woah that is one insane machine! I’ve never seen a machine do everything like that. Azimuth is slightly different to bias, I wouldn’t ever touch that for fear of getting excited and turning past the tolerance. The azimuth is the angle of the playback head to the tape, which can get knocked. The tape needs to run square past the head, it’s such a tiny adjustment it’s closed on most machines as the rollers provide that straightening. as long as it’s all clean it’s ok.

Amplifier wise, some don’t allow to record from some sources. Mine dosnt allow tape output so I had to re-patch the cables into the CD input which is ok as the CD player isn’t working unless I pull my finger out and repair the stupid plug!

You can get tone alignment tapes on eBay for a few pounds. It’s basically just a frequency, it can be any frequency (I think) but the ones I have are 3khz. As long as it’s constant, and made on the deck to be calibrated - you can make your own! I use a free ipad app to measure.
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By Mateo Sanboval
#115505
I'm pretty certain I have a few of those TDK SA-X 90 cassettes buried in storage somewhere, still sealed. I used those to tape my favorite CDs back in The Day.
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By maxlevel
#115585
I will try and find a good use for the Sa-x! A basic eBay search may not bring up the £1 specials, but ‘cassette job lot’ often does, and if you look at the images you can pick out some tasty numbers. You want to look out for That’s, Maxell MX, Maxell XLII and TDK SA or MA hidden behind the piles of TDK Ferric, Maxell UR and Sony HF.

There’s a story on tapeheads today and one poster says that Greatful Dead fans were very strict in their bootleg rules, all stored in climate controlled rooms but they’ve now digitised their collection of shows they are selling their mint Maxell XLII. apparently was a huge deal in the community
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By maxlevel
#115621
I have to drive to an old dears house on Friday to pickup 40x used blank tapes which I got for £6. This trip is ludicrous and 2 hours in each direction. There’s a number of little beauts in there, a Thats VX90 and a load of SA. I feel like I’ve chosen wisely but I’ll basically have to avoid magnets forever like a confused metal vampire
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By maxlevel
#116165
So I’ve been on the hunt. I think I’ve settled on the Tokyo brand ‘That’s’, which is a specialist tape and quite rare in the UK compared to the bulletproof TDK SA. I love the shell and the quality of the tapes, so I will be taking these where possible. eBay seems to have a steady supply and some go for the classic £1 bargains here and there. I think if you can find any Thats Metal tapes under £10 even in used condition you’re doing quite well...

So I think That’s and TDK SA or MA are the go to tapes. I have a load of cheap tapes for messing around with.
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By maxlevel
#117205
This week I have been mainly buying That’s metal type IV tapes for a few quid on eBay. I just made a tape of 2x Deadly Avenger albums onto a MR-X60 Pro, and holy shit it’s blowing me away. You definitely don’t need any Dolby noise reduction thats for sure, it’s totally hiss free, totally distortion free, totally handles full range... totally sold at this point. Last week I made a tape on a That’s type 2 EM60, which is actually a metal type 2! And I have 1 MG-X left.

Only issue is the cost. Buying new metal tapes is stupid expensive. But even a basic That’s type 1 is a joy to listen to, and those are much more readily available and cheap; I just picked up 5 that’s rx90 for £5.

Recommend to all
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By Bezulsqy
#120146
@max and @spun are the most likely to know but if someone else does please chime in :-)

I was under the impression that my Beocord machine was able to recognize the type of tape I play. But after reading Spun's tapes are chrome (I believe) I was wondering why my machine doesn't recognize that. After some searching I found out that the Beocord defines what tape is used because of some taps on the tape. Apparently the 4 types of tape all have different taps somewhere that distinguishes tape from tape. Is this true?
I would not be surprised if this was the case back in the 80's and 90's but that new tapes all have the same layout and one cannot see if it is a chrome or metal or ferric tape. I do know that when you look at the tape itself there is a difference in colour or thickness.

@Spun: how do you choose with type of tape is used? Simply ask the tape manufacturer: I want that type in that shell?

I don't think my machine cares what type of tape it is when playing and that tape type recognizing function probably only is useful for recording. Or do you think it might matter?
When I am home I am going to try to hear a difference between settings.

And now I think of it. Do pre-recorded tapes use Dolby B/C/Pro or whatever or is no such feature used?

I have to say the sound quality coming of Spun's tapes is rather excellent. I never use any dolby or other setting while playing them.