[freshoj]

I had been meaning to launch this discussion earlier and kept forgetting.

I was reminded about it when I saw a recent forum post where someone is selling a record that has really jumped in value since they first purchased it.

how do they price this? the sign on the wall says "No price gouging" but where does the line get drawn between gouging and getting fair market value? should we sell our stuff at under market value as a sign of brotherhood? if yes, how much under? 10%? 25%? or should we try and not make any profit at all and just sell it for our initial cost?

The higher my profit is, the more records I can buy with the proceeds. As a record junky, I have a hard time not thinking like that.

I thought it was interesting when the story of Spencer's grail acquisition came around, nobody called foul at the seller and yelled 'flipper!' or 'gouger!' personally, I have no ill will towards someone who buys/sells records to make a profit as long as they aren't taking money away from someone who really needs it - but if they do that, chances are the fuzzy ethics of record flipping is the least of their moral concerns.

as an aside, I am also skeptical that record flipping is even a lucrative field (even with gouging!). after you account for paypal/discogs/ebay/credit card fees and time spent going to the post office and hitting refresh on your browser and twitter feeds, I am doubtful there is a lot of money to be made - even if you usually bet on the right records.

thoughts? (and was this whole post just a way for me to rationalize my discogs prices?)

[bansel]

You know, I pondered this a while back and the idea of "price gouging" is really a tricky thing. After all, a record is worth what someone is willing to pay. I am not a re-seller, so what I buy is for my collection. I set my own pay limit like a big boy. If something I want is priced too high for what I'm willing to pay, I know that eventually it will pop up for a price I can deal with. Someone on this site said patience is the key and I agree. I recently picked up a dead mint copy of Prom Night at a record store for $40. Yet I see it go on eBay for over $200-$300. I would never had paid that. Nor am I interested in selling it to make a profit. But that's a personal choice.

Where it gets shitty is particularly with the newer limited reissues, like Mondo and limited Death Waltz stuff. Where people will scoop up multiple copies somehow for $20 and throw them up on EBay the next day for $200. Fuck that shit. That's just shitty people taking advantage of a niche crowd. I'd never buy from someone like that, and luckily those types are easy to spot

[bansel]

And just to expand on that rant a little more. I think it's completely acceptable to ask a higher price for something that is extremely limited or unique, because that's all in the nature of collecting. With soundtrack reissues gaining popularity, there is simply less to go around. Labels are put in a predicament, because if they press 4000 copies, suddenly not as many people want it. So variants and special editions are important, as it's one of the fun aspects of collecting. And in those cases, if something is pressed in quantity of 400 and includes a blade of grass, or has Richard Band's fart air sealed inside of it, then I think you can ask the sky for it. Those special limited oddities are meant for collectors, not necessarily listeners. And as such, collectors should and do expect to pay for that precious item

[ghostfires]

I don't think it's wrong to ask the current market value of a record...why wouldn't you do that? The comment about if you sell it for more, you can buy more records...well hell, thats exactly what we're all in this for! We all want MORE records. I buy and sell constantly. Sometimes I sell at market value, sometimes I sell at what I paid - I've never made a ton of money on any of it, but if I can sell of a few and buy more records than I sold...I'm pretty happy.

The only issue I can find is that gougers sometimes end up setting the market value when it really wasn't suppose to be that way. I mean look at the Daft Punk soundtrack for Tron...at least 4,000 copies pressed yet it goes for over $250?! That just seems pretty insane when you see much more limited releases going for far less. That seems like some gougers figured it out and priced it so far out, and all they needed was to sell it to one or two devoted Daft Punk followers so that the average sale price would show up on Discogs as being $250 or higher...and boom, you've got yourself an incredible markup. That is the only problem I've really ever seen. I love all the reissues personally because you can buy the original of a record...all worn out, dusty, flimsy for $50-100.......ooooooorrrrr buy the reissue for $25, and you get typically much more sturdy vinyl with lots of extras...the choice is simple! Now if someone, anyone, would just reissue that Daft Punk Tron soundtrack...

[DISCOSUCKS...]

Tron Legacy OST crosses over enough different "music/cult/collector" areas that the market for those 4000 limited vinyl is obviously going to be somewhat larger/more competitive...hence higher $ value. Daft Punk, Sci Fi, Electronic Pop, Tron, Soundtrack, vinyl....oh, and not to mention the fact that the music is...erm....frickin' brilliant!! Although I'm often dispirited by the high re-sale prices of things I've missed out on, sometimes it does sortof makes sense.

[chandler75]

I never really understood what the big deal is... As jmctodo points out: The time and money it takes to get these items and flip them to the few collectors who are actually willing to pay the big bucks - wouldn't it make more sense to get a job...?

As for collectors selling high value items to other collectors, who then sell other high value items to other collectors... Well, that's just how the market works, isn't it?

And it's fun to see how much you can actually get for your stuff, especially if you don't buy it to resell it to start with. 5-10 years ago I had a little noise DIY label and collected and traded noise CD-R's. I lost most interest in the genre after a few years and put up my collection on Discogs. And it's fun when someone is willing to pay $100 for a CD-R I bought 8 years ago for $5 or got for free in a trade... But of course I also have 500 other noise CD-R's than won't sell at all, even for a few bucks

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with vinyl soundtracks, though, other than I don't think it's wrong to get what you can get for your stuff...

[DISCOSUCKS...]

Buying/selling stuff has never been the sole province of the unemployed bro - and can you imagine how much of this stuff is going on during office hours across the globe?? if these boards are anything to go by, guys on here are spending most of their "work" day on the net, monitoring for drops! god help the burgeoning vinyl soundtrack market if employers actually get hip to this.....and how obsessive we are! i'd say that's probably the single biggest threat to labels like DW and Mondo etc! (I can see the headline in the Daily Mail now - with fudged stats about lost work hours/cost to the honest taxpayer.....it'll be like video nasties all over again!)

But before I get back to work myself (hahaha.....)

My take is simple: you can tell gouging a mile off. I buy music to A. listen to it, and B. because it's neat in some way (design/packaging/limited etc). When I see music being traded like frozen orange juice (flippers/speculators) I just think "go fuck yourself, ass hat!" and try and have no part of it. Because....they've lost the plot/point a looooong time ago. It's.Pure.Fucking.Greed. Admittedly, for some there will be a personal thrill attached to the correct prediction of future gold-reaping collectables.....and I can kind of understand that side of it. But really - even that's not bloody difficult/such a praiseworthy skill! As I said before about Tron Legacy fetching £200+ now....with the current market for such things, and the particular boxes-ticked on that release: no surprise at all.

[chandler75]

But how can you tell a fan/collector from a flipper? (e.g. on Discogs, eBay etc.).

[ghostfires]

What difference does it make at the point of buying?

If you see a record for sale on Discogs and you know one is a collector selling an extra copy, and one is just a reseller...both have the same record at a really high price, does it matter to you who you buy from at that point?

[bansel]

The difference between a fan/collector vs. a flipper? I will use Mondo as an example. Whenever they have a record (or poster) go on sale, you generally have under a minute to buy it before its sold out. If you are lucky enough to be at your computer when they send out the twitter notification maybe you can get one.
But literally within an HOUR there will be several Ebay auctions for said record with people selling their PRE-ORDER for at least a 50% markup on the "buy it "now" feature. They don't even have the goddamn thing in hand! They just happen to have a quicker internet connection than you and are going to see who wants it bad enough. That's what I consider a "flipper". I don't have an issue with any other pricing/selling that goes on. And yeh, it's the part of me being a big baby that I wasn't quick enough to grab one

[DISCOSUCKS...]

Spot on, Bansel. Just grubby, opportunistic behaviour. Pure exploitation. (but, you know - the bad kind, heh heh...)

I will mention a recent instance of this to jog our memories - a "perfect storm" of circumstances that encourage this kind of shitty flipping.

DW's initial press of The Fog, right? Ugh. Makes you embarrassed and queasy being a soundtrack+movie fan/collector.

Firstly - the right release. Carpenter. Classic Carpenter. Unreleased on vinyl for decades. Expanded. Definitive.

Second - hot new label, spreading it's wings, taking flight. Deluxe doesn't even cover it. Really top package.

Add a world renowned artist. I don't dig the cover art? S'fine...I can see why people do. And why it was a big deal.

Then - the drop is chaos. Website issues. Fans freak out. Did I get one? What happened to my order? The cart was all fucked up/I don't know what happened!? And they went really damn fast.

So for weeks afterwards (and it seemed pretty much up until the announcement of the 2nd pressing), crazy flipping prices wherever you looked. Crazy prices. I was at the launch screening, and picked up the splatter version deliberately, passing up the more limited black wax. Why? Because I liked the clear versions better, but also felt (as per Spencer's intro that night) that the black was a taunt to the flippers. (I actually would have preferred the haze, but I'm a dope - I should have just requested one I guess

And now? After the madness? You can pick up the black (only 200 worldwide remember) for perhaps less than twice the initial cost. Not madness. Sorta reasonable. Whatever. If you really want it, you can get it without it hurting too much.

As a soundtrack and movie fan, collector and (slight) obsessive completist, I really hope not to see another "perfect storm" like that. Some ugly shit.

[ghostfires]

Mondo, I believe, has a hand in how their products are flipped around instantly. There is always a good number of the exact same people, all located in Austin, that have the Mondo products ready to be flipped the instant they sell out online. There is no waiting a few hours or waiting a day - you can watch ebay the same time as the Mondo website, and you'll see those posters/records go up for sale within seconds of the sale launch. To me - that just seems too convenient that the exact same flippers ALWAYS get the product...but yet all of us regular buyers just randomly, sometimes, maybe get lucky enough to get one copy through before its all over. How is that? Probably because they get a head start? Maybe they're buddies? I don't know, don't have proof...but I've always felt like the Mondo scene is a rigged program. Just my personal belief.

You can see how brilliantly labels like DW, One Way Static, LITA, and Waxworks handle their selling/shipping. Almost all these guys are newcomers too in comparison to Mondo, yet they all figured out how to make it work fairly for their devoted customers? Pretty strange stuff.

[DISCOSUCKS...]

I hear ya.

And not to slander Mondo.....but, how many versions of Drive now??

(If anything, that could almost read as fucking with the after-market value of their own release.....but it doesn't answer any questions about your specific issue, that's fo sho!)

[unpopular_poet]

I agree with just about everything said here -- I totally get it -- records are worth what people will pay for them -- but I think where DW does it so much better than Mondo -- If you are a subscriber -- then you get a relaxed shot at limited releases before they drop to flipper types. This forum has made it possible for collector/listeners to get those releases that are important to each and every one of us -- and that is also a huge step -- the Fog and DW Maniac release shows that -- I paid cost plus shipping for both -- while they were going to 3-5X that on eBay -- but if you miss that window, and have to have it -- then it is down to how bad do you want it I suppose....I can tell you I wanted the Phantasm OST -- and patiently waited..and waited...and waited -- and then one went up on eBay for $80 BIN...and I grabbed it. I think, as said above, it is about time and patience with some of these releases as well. I think all in all, this forum has made life less expensive for a ton of us -- think of this place like Bailey Building and Loan in It's a Wonderful Life -- and eBay flippers like Mr. Potter....or not....it is up to you. Happy Halloween everyone..as I sit here waiting for that damn Mondo twitter annoucement. Ugh.

[NathanLurker]

I'm happy I got that Tron ost when it was 45$ on amazon. I tought that was expensive back then.