[Mateo Sanboval]

So I am helping a "friend" get set up with an entry level turntable and have settled on the U-Turn Orbit Plus with the acrylic platter, tone arm cue lever and either an Ortofon 2M Red or Blue cartridge. With these various upgrades it meets the budget almost exactly. Here're my questions:

One, believe it or not, I've never owned a manual deck before and it just suddenly occurred to me that this could be a deal breaker for some folks. For those of you that have a manual (and occasionally listen whilst doing other things), is having to run over and return the tonearm to the rest position yourself that big of a deal? And to that same point, does the needle ever hop the runout groove and skip into the label either damaging the label (or the needle!) and/or making some sort of horrible scratching sound?

Second, I chose the Ortofon 2M Red, but am intrigued by the Blue. I'm all for upgrading a cart, but is the Blue "overkill" for a turntable at this level or is the deck largely irrelevant and the upgrade a fine idea?

[deafmetal]

@Mateo - The U-Turn Orbit seems like a solid choice, and has been recommended to me as well. I find manual operation to be a plus for the nerd-factor and not a deal-breaker, although you do need to pay more attention. Yes, the needle will sometimes hop out of the run-out groove if you aren't watching closely, but usually it will just ride the label edge and make a white noise/whooshing sound before you pull the needle off.

[Mateo Sanboval]

@Mateo - The U-Turn Orbit seems like a solid choice, and has been recommended to me as well. I find manual operation to
be a plus for the nerd-factor and not a deal-breaker, although you do need to pay more attention. Yes, the needle will sometimes hop out of the run-out groove if you aren't watching closely, but usually it will just ride the label edge and make a white noise/whooshing sound before you pull the needle off.

Thanks, Deaf. I appreciate your insight; that makes perfect sense. I always thought manual seemed like hot shit myself, but to your point...I am a nerd.

PS - I have edited my original post to include a question about the carts as well. Looking forward to hearing from some of our other resident audiophiles on this one as well.

[static14]

I've almost always had a manual table as my main table. I've never had any issues with them. Lifting up the cue lever at the end of sides is no biggie.

I'd say go for the Ortofon blue. The write ups on the red all mention inner groove distortion and sibilance. I've never had the blue, but I did have a bronze years ago and really like it for what that's worth.

I've had the needle spinning in the runout grooves for a few minuted before. It's a lot less stressful on the stylus than you'd think.

[Mateo Sanboval]

I've almost always had a manual table as my main table. I've never had any issues with them. Lifting up the cue lever at the end of sides is no biggie.

I'd say go for the Ortofon blue. The write ups on the red all mention inner groove distortion and sibilance. I've never had the blue, but I did have a bronze years ago and really like it for what that's worth.

I've had the needle spinning in the runout grooves for a few minuted before. It's a lot less stressful on the stylus than you'd think.

That's largely what I am curious about when it comes to the manual table. Thanks, Static. The Bronze gets pretty great reviews, but I think that's out of the price range. I can't see how operating a tonearm cue lever is a big deal. I have one of those on my current deck and it's no hassle at all, but it also has an automatic return.

Keep 'em comin'!

[chiefbrody]

@mateo, I've never had an automatic tone-arm. It'd be more convenient, but no deal-breaker. As you say, it adds to the experience.

I'm no audiophile, and I have the Ortofon Red. I've not had any problems with this one, although I had to get it replaced after my previous one developed significant distortion/sibilance. I've had this one much longer and have no issues. I never had it skip out of the groove either time.

I'll replace it with the Blue needle when the time comes. I don't know when that is though - I keep reading that if you wait until you hear the difference, you've already done damage to your records.

For what it's worth, if the Blue is only a small price upgrade, I'd go for it. I've found that I regretted not pushing the boat out a bit further, at the cost of various upgrades over time.

[monsterworship]

I only fuck with automatics; currently I have a Denon DP 300F with a shure 97xe cartridge upgrade.
Though I do frequently look at buying a higher end turntable, mostly for the looks of it; acrylic platters and such.

But one of the most annoying thing I find about some of the newer manual turntables is the :
You have to lift the platter off and move the belt to change to 45rpm/33rpm.

I already have to get up and get a vinyls and put it on the platters and then press a button; phew exhausting amiright.
j/k

[Mateo Sanboval]

@Chief - Good advice about pushing for the affordable upgrades from the outset.

@MW - Ha! Incidently, one of the highlights of the U-Turn is that while you do need to move the belt to change speeds, it does not involve removing the platter.

[ScoJo]

I have a Lenco Goldring GL-85 and you have to remove every motherfuckin thing to change speed.

And no....it is not fun. I take a good hard look at every 45 speed platter before spinning, and wonder "do I really need to hear your ass?"

Genuine 1stWP.

[chiefbrody]

But one of the most annoying thing I find about some of the newer manual turntables is the :
You have to lift the platter off and move the belt to change to 45rpm/33rpm.

I need to be sure I'm on a run of 45s before switching. I do find this annoying. If I'd laid out a little more money at the time I could've had a built in speed change, better stylus and acrylic platter for about 1/3 of what it'll cost to upgrade.

@Scojo that's fucked. No other words for it!

[deafmetal]

Regarding manual speed changes, Pro-ject owners might be interested in this:

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=speedboxse

[chiefbrody]

Yes indeed @deaf. A wonderful device. Unfortunately for Debut owners (I own the Debut Carbon) it's incompatibilite and the Debut equivalent comes with a recommended price of £350!! The Debut Carbon costs about £300 and the the Carbon Espirit, which has speed change built in, is £400!!! Buyer's remorse to the max.

[Hatter313]

Yeah I've got a debut carbon 3 with an acrylic platter. Never had any issues with my red cartridge, but I may be due for a change soon and I'll probably go for blue. Moving the arm every side isn't a big deal for me.

I actually enjoy the extra ritual of removing the platter and using the little key thing to change speeds haha.

[EvanCampbell]

Mateo - I tried both the blue and red for awhile. The blue is bright sounding and forward. It has a much more noticeable punch over the red especially in the highs. It definitely colors the music though. Here is the thing...while the blue popped more it sounded a bit artificial to me. I say the red is fine for this setup for now.

[Mateo Sanboval]

Mateo - I tried both the blue and red for awhile. The blue is bright sounding and forward. It has a much more noticeable punch over the red especially in the highs. It definitely colors the music though. Here is the thing...while the blue popped more it sounded a bit artificial to me. I say the red is fine for this setup for now.

Interesting point of view, Evan. One that I've not heard expressed much around Ye Olde Webernets. I'll have a think on that. Thanks for contributing!

[EvanCampbell]

Not saying the blue is a bad cartridge...and it is certainly is a step up from the red. I played it for a few months and switched it out. Just if you are getting into spending over 2 and change for the blue you could go for a denon dl-103 or denon dl-110 at a similar price point with a more natural sound. At least that is how my ears understood it!

[texasvinyl]

I like my Shure carts. M44-7. Marketed as a DJ cart but really fine for everyday listening.

[Mateo Sanboval]

Not saying the blue is a bad cartridge...and it is certainly is a step up from the red. I played it for a few months and switched it out. Just if you are getting into spending over 2 and change for the blue you could go for a denon dl-103 or denon dl-110 at a similar price point with a more natural sound. At least that is how my ears understood it!

Roger that. I like to fancy myself a bit of a jazz man and the Denon dl-110 and the old 160 both get high marks for their warmth and timbre on a lot of jazz, acoustic, and classical recordings from what I've heard. Especially for the price. They have often intrigued me. Inspired by your post, Evan, I spent the last little bit reading comps between the 110 and the various 2M carts, specifically the Blue where possible. The gist I got from most folks like yourself who had owned and operated both of them was that the Denon was unforgiving of damaged or dirty records while the Ortofon was unforgiving of poorly recorded records. One reviewer said that the DL 110 "lied to me like I want it to" and allowed him to get more enjoyment out of older, less than NM LPs than the Blue. But the flipside was that the Blue offered transparency and truer playback of what was actually in the grooves.

Probably a gross oversimplification, but I appreciated it and all the great perspectives here and elsewhere. I like that the choice is between what may sound better to your ear vs a truer presentation. What a wonderful quandary to have!

[EvanCampbell]

I had the exact opposite experience in a way. I found the 2mblue artificially bright. It sounded tinny and shrill to me.
Fun to share notes on these subjects :) it could go on for days.
The 160 is a great cart...like you said warm!

[Mateo Sanboval]

I had the exact opposite experience in a way. I found the 2mblue artificially bright. It sounded tinny and shrill to me.
Fun to share notes on these subjects :) it could go on for days.
The 160 is a great cart...like you said warm!

Well, I think you've hit on what matters most a couple of times now, Evan. And that's how it sounds to one's own ears. It's the most important part. Seems obvious, but it's easy to lose sight of amidst all the research, hype, etc. God knows I appreciate the pretense and agenda-free discourse this place provides.

[Mateo Sanboval]

Well the die is cast! We've past the point of no return! It's pillars of salt time! There's absolutely no looking back now! Well, except for U-Turn's unconditional thirty day return policy. But other than that there's no turning this ship around! Except their whole name kind of lends itself to the notion of a wholesale change in course, doesn't it? I mean it's called U-Turn for crying out loud.

Anyhow, one U-Turn Orbit Plus in basic black with acrylic platter, tone arm cue lever, Audioquest Evergreen cables and Ortofon 2M Blue cart has been dialed up for the low, low (depending on your point of view) price of $450 and will soon be wending its way to the Pacific Northwest. Thanks for lending a hand STBC. I'm looking to upgrade a few things in the near future. Perhaps I'll continue to pick all of your brains as I muddle my way through. As long as it doesn't drive you all too nuts... Chin chin!

[EvanCampbell]

The guy or girl will not be disappointed. I think they will be quite amazed at how crisp the music sounds.

[static14]

@mateo snap some pics when you get it!

[deafmetal]

God knows I appreciate the pretense and agenda-free discourse this place provides.

What is a turntable discussion without at least one analog vs digital flame war? I like this place too.

[Jimmy_Mike]

@Mateo, congrats. It is a good day.

I've got my eyes on a Thorens as my next table. Currently using my buddies Rega RP2 with a red Ortofon while he's out of the country, but hate having to lift platter to change speeds.

Back in my noob vinyl days, I once left my needle spinning in the runoff for 24 hrs. Doesn't happen anymore, but still makes me cringe when I think about it.