[ninjur]

Hi, I'm rather new to the soundtrack vinyl revival but have collected vinyl for about 30 years.
I see that there is a lot of labels that release great music on vinyl but how many are really good sounding vinyls and how many is just cool vinyls? Becuase to me, it looks like the most importent thing is to get the craziest color on the vinyl, and collecting the most limited edition. Not as much going for best soundquality.
I, personally, much rather just take black vinyls releases that are from the original source, mastered and cut by people that really know what they are doing (don't compress and add strange EQ), and pressed at the best pressingplants, than CD sourced "cool color" vinyl.

May be it is me that are not understanding this revival. May be it is just "surface": cool colors, collection and new artwork that people want. I don't know.

So my question is, what do you think? Is the source used and the mastering important? Or are the sound secondary to collect limited editions?

[Hatter313]

It absolutely matters, and even a cursory glance at a lot of the convos here would show that. Sorry if that comes off curt, I don't mean it to be, but this topic comes up over and over again.

Also most of these labels, especially death waltz/mondo, one way static, waxwork, and some of our smaller boutique labels are very upfront and passionate about the mastering and sources for their release, and Vocally critical of CD sourced pressings, often warning us about big label releases that are just that, and nothing more.

As for the color thing....here goes:
The vinyl revival is largely about sound quality, but it is ALSO about the package itself. The tangibility of a record, a solid sleeve and big, bold artwork on the outside that is as much a representation of the source of the sonic artwork inside. This is especially true of the soundtrack world, as these soundtracks are the sonic representation of a primarily visual medium.

And guess what, that's OK. Sure there are people who collect for the sake of collecting, and that's ok too, but a lot of what made me personally switch to vinyl as my prime music medium is the compete package and beautiful artwork/wax effects that these labels come up with.

If the effect results in a noisy pressing, believe me the folks here will talk about it and review it.

Most of the color and effects choices made by the labels on this forum are again a representation of something in the film itself. And that's damn cool design in my opinion.

sometimes I wonder if people are just upset that others are into the things they are, as if by loving cool packages and awesome design AS WELL AS the music, it somehow cheapens the REAL fans....and I'm too old to Clinton to nonsense like that.

Besides, would you rather this music didn't get released at all?
Sorry for the rant, I'm just tired of having to apologize for liking my deluxe splatter haze variant and how it looks as a physical object as much as the music that comes off it.

[Jimmy_Mike]

@hatter:

[Pain_Bubbles]

A lot of people here seem biased towards the colored stuff and incredibly tolerant to surface noise and other audible defects. A lot of the discussions here revolve around "variants" and cool packaging and whenever it is agreed upon that a certain release has "some surface noise" that usualy translates to: "It's completely useless as a listenable record".
It was mentioned here a while ago that a label just couldn't sell the black version of a release while colored "variants' sold out very quickly, that just saddens me beyond words.
I consider myself lucky that I am not interested in 99% of the releases mentioned on this message board (more into orchestral 30's/40's/50's soundtracks) and whenever something I'd like to buy DOES come up, I really caution myself to think it over: If it's a splatter version I won't buy it, no mater how much I like the music, if it's a transparent or solid color it will depend on the label, price and shipping costs. Certain labels I avoid altogether.

Hatters'concern that "real fans' feel "cheapened sounds like nonsense to me: I've been listening to soundtracks for almost 30 years and certainly don't feel that way, in fact I was really happy with all the new releases initially.
I am just severly disappointed at the quality and prices of ( a lot) the new stuff, and spending 40+ € on a "record" only to receive a barely listenable colored novelty item became really old really fast.

9 Out of 10 times I can order a NOS sealed Japan version with a infinitely higer chance of being a good pressing than any new release for the same price or less. (I have bought many heavily used records from the 1950's that were better than most of the new stuff).

To me that is simply unacceptable...

I am convinced a lot of the labels here are trying real hard to get a good product out, and a lot of the new pressings are actually quite good, but quality control is a real issue and the price (including exorbitant shipping costs for the more lavish versions) vs. performance ratio is not worth it for me. A return to regular black vinyl and lighter 140 gram records would greatly improve the quality , decrease production costs and shipping costs.
It would be interesting to see how this would affect sales, but my guess is it would kill the "vinyl revival" really quickly....

[chiefbrody]

I'd agree with Hatter, in the main. I was thinking about this yesterday though when I read (I think) that Mark of the Devil will be sourced from CD.

Re: 'real' fans - I think this comes up all the time - die hards/purists vs newbies, etc. I think fans of music and film tend to like to think they know some sort of secret, or that they're in an exclusive club. I'm sure this happens with soundtrack collectors as much as the people who (claim they) saw Oasis at King Tut's, etc.

@pain, my guess is that everything being pressed on black vinyl would do very little to the 'vinyl revival' overall. It might dent the release of some niche products like film scores (it does seem that it's easier to sell 200 splatters than 100 black vinyl scores). I expect that if you looked at the top 10 vinyl releases over the last year or two, they wouldn't be shifting big numbers because of the fancy colours. That said, I think the soundtrack/score revival relies on limited pressings just as much as fancy colours. To me, the colours are an added bonus to a sub-set of the collector group, who get as much from the art of the package as the grooves of the record. If you were referring to the soundtrack vinyl revival only, my apologies for mis-reading it as being a more general point.

For what it's worth, I've heard splatters that are perfect and black vinyl popping all over the place, and quality control does not seem to be an issue confined to colour/splatter vinyl. I suspect the splatters are more likely to be noisy, but I've yet to have any unlistenable pressings from any of the labels on here.

[picnicinthejungle]

For me, the sound of certain vinyl recordings is like ethnography, some countries, I believe, have better machinery than others. For example, I have some exceedingly obscure childrens records pressed in Turkey that have less defined sonority, even when the music was produced in America. In comparison to Japanese pressings they are, to me always, spectacular.
A first and only pressing of the last indigenous Australian field recording made in Tasmania on vinyl would surpass any vinyl quality/sounding considerations.

[Pain_Bubbles]

@Chiefbrody:

I did indeed mean the soundtrack vinyl revival (And other niche markets), the main market for vinyl is probably still the "dadrock" of the Babyboom generation. (Which is probably plagued by its own marketing gimmicks like "audiophile masterings")

Maybe I am not the most typical of music listeners, but I can't for the life of me imagine that someone who was collecting soundtracks 15 years ago would feel like they 'knew a secret" or were in some "exclusive club". (Well if a single person can be considered a club, it might have, but that's one very exclusive club then...)

It might be worth mentioning that I listen on headphones a lot, and as such am bothered more by surface noise. My reference point are records that , even on headphones have no surface noise loud enough to be intrusive. This is probably different for everyone, but for me that means no pops, clicks , rumble, non fill or stitching noise louder then the music at ANY moment, not even during quiet passages in orchestral music. (Some hiss contact noise and very quiet crackle between tracks is ofcourse normal)
These records are, and always have been rare, let's call them a perfect 10.
Now if these are a perfect 10, then a record with the occasional clearly audible but gentle pop or tick (Let's say 5-10 per side) are 8's and 9's, these are not rare: When buying NOS sealed records from the 60's and 70's (and often many used records from this period)this is generally what I get.

Now compared to this standard, and even to the occasional 7 or 6 I buy from old stocks ,new records simply don't cut it: Pops and clicks are much more common, but what is worse is the rumble, the non fill, the continuous contact noise etc etc.
When listening on headphones this is extremely annoying, and I don't think there is any doubt that it is much more common on Splatter, Swirl and transparent versions. (In that order)

I have never received a "splatter" vinyl I would rate above 5, most are much worse and are, to me at least, unlistenable on headphones.
I have only once or twice (out of many) received a transparent record I would rate above 7

I have also receive many new black records that don't meet my standards, but most at least do qualify as 6 or better.
(Solid colors can also be quiet, although not as often as black)

Now if these quality isssues would be limited to 10€ records, I would probably not make a big deal out of it, but we are often talking about records that cost 30€-40€ or more. (Without shipping)
It is my opinion that for these amounts I am allowed to expect nothing less than perfection.


@Picnicinthejungle:
I don't mind 'archival' sound quality in important recordings, but if that field recording from Tasmania was releases on a 35€ "Tasmanian-tiger-striped -brown-and-black variant" with an abundance of (avoidable) surface noise inherent to the pressing and the color scheme that would, to me at least, be a slap in the face and a clear indication that whoever released it (And whoever pressed it) does not take their product very seriously. (At least not as a medium for high fidelity sound reproduction)
The moment you are letting aesthetics get in the way of the primary functionality of a product you are dropping the ball. (And that's putting it gently I think)

[static14]

Welcome aboard @ninjur.

I'll pretty much agree with what everyone else has said at this point. A ton of the folks here put sound quality above all else when it comes to new releases or re-pressings. To me at least it's of major importance. Because of this I'll generally get the regular ass black pressing of an album if it's offered as an option. Everything after that; packaging, artwork is all gravy.

To be fair to the labels they (almost across the board as of late) have taken the greatest care to make sure that even splatter, split, weird effect vinyl releases have all had really low background noise. So the color has become much less of an issue recently. Unless like @Pain_Bubbles you do a lot of listening through headphones.

One last thing. It's vinyl not vinyls. That extra "s" is like nails on a chalkboard. You wouldn't say linoleums or aluminums.

[Pain_Bubbles]

@static14:

That's probably another caveat in my reasoning: I have not bought many new releases on vinyl the past year. If labels and pressing plants improved the quality of the variants I would not have noticed it because of this.


A somewhat silly suggestion perhaps, but have any of the labels tried finding out where the Russians press their vinyl?
I continue to be amazed the quality of Russian pressings, from the (Semi?) offical (Mirumir) to the questionable (Doxy) it would seem there is at least one ace pressing plant active out there.

[chiefbrody]

@pain, I had a bad feeling, mid-paragraph, that I'd picked you up wrong. In that case, I do think the labels boost sales with variants that boost collectability at the expense of sound quality.

I don't listen on headphones, and am no audiophile, so I can't really judge as well as you probably can.

I guess, re the 'secret/exclusive' point, I meant that people like the early years of a band, when they're small and it's intimate...when they were the first of their friends to get into them, etc. I'll hold my hands up to being guilty of 'early years' syndrome with a band or two over the years, in my younger days!

To me, one equivalent in film is the 'I preferred the original (foreign language) version' argument - it usually holds true, but sometimes people just want to be 'cleverer' or first of their friends to like something. Those people (and I THINK @hatter was hinting at this) look on aghast as others are late to the party, or moving in on their 'thing'. Personally, I don't give a hoot about that (and nor do you, it seems), but I'd be surprised if there wasn't some of that in this community, somewhere.

Anyways, sorry for misunderstanding your point, which I think has merit, and we'd agree on.

[Pain_Bubbles]

@Chiefbrody:

You are too kind, it really was my bad for not being clear about that.

I think I also suffer from "early years syndrome" , but i have never attributed that to intimacy or scale.
My listening habits are mostly soundtracks , ambient and modern classical music, but with the little rock or "pop" music I almost always enjoy the early albums of a band , and then often grow tired of them after later releases.
With 9 out of 10 of the rock/pop music I own, I own the first 2 or 3 records of a band.
To me this has always been about the "rough edges" bands have when they are still "searching" for their sound. A lot of bands end up with a sound that is just to "slick" after their first few albums. (I like my music weird I guess)
Quite often experimentation and quirkiness gives way to technical prowess and synergy, which to me as a non-musician is often just not as interesting.

[Hatter313]

@chief and pain,

Yeah, that's the attitude I was talking about. And im coming at that from largely a more general place, beyond the community we have here. I'm the generation that started that hipster nonsense, so I'm always at pains to justify the legitimacy of anything I enjoy, lest I be accused of likeing something just because it's "cool"

But at the same time, I'm happy for the things I'm into to get wider play, because it means easier access to those things, and I feel like a lot of people feel the opposite. Maybe not here, but absolutely other places.

As for sound quality, I'm no golden ears, so maybe I'm more forgiving of surface noise than a more tuned ear, and I don't usually listen via headphones either, so I can see how that would create a different impression. I've not been unhappy with any pressing so far, but Maybe I've just been lucky.

[picnicinthejungle]

Of course, I agree, however acoustic recordings are precarious in their quality by nature. The recreation of the sound could never produce the precision of tonality, dynamic, and spatiality compared to a remastered recording using digital software to enhance the audio range. That's my impression anyway.
Perhaps what I am more concerned about is owning a recording that appeals to me. These days soundtrack collectors seem to be lucky. You folks are lucky, DW, OWS WW Mondo offer you variants of variants!
I believe listening, really listening into the sound of recordings is what I appreciate about vinyl. In saying this I have some super shit pressings that are flexi discs, in house computer company recordings and journal recordings that what some would describe as styrofoam pressings.
I care about sound quality but I am willing to sacrifice quality of pressing for an audio experience that is unavailable any where else.

[Pain_Bubbles]

@Hatter313:

I really try to avoid the "H" word, althouth there might be SOME truth to the whole "hipster" conspiracy, I think the same holds true for every other (sub)culture. Most of the things most people do have very little to do with practical issues: If everything was about pragmatism, I (Or anyone) would not spend money on a nice coffee table ,I'd nail a piece of plywood onto some orange crates and call it a day. We would only buy clothes to keep us warm and dry, and would have our back yards paved with concrete because it's so much easier to maitain than a fancy garden with a cobblestone path.

So I really, REALLY want you to be happy with the splatter versions, I just wish I coul be really REALLY happy with a black, sonically perfect version of the same album. (Instead, you get the black version, and I get the random "variant")
My beef isn't with the fans of great packaging or colored vinyl, it's probably mostly disappointment: A hobby I practiced for many years somehow became "mainstream" (That's overstating it probabably) and i really looked forward to the new releases, and then got burned again and again with some very expensive duds ,bought directly from labels that never responded to my legitimate complaints, money down the drain...
(I am going out of my way not to name labels, but it's safe to say that I've had nothing but positive experiences with 90% of the labels active on this message board, customer service is certainly not an issue here)

In a perfect world we both get our way: Some new pressing plant with brand new machines will be founded, and new techniques and experience will alow sonically perfect splatter versions.

[Hatter313]

Oh understood completely @Pain, and i agree that sound quality should be paramount. I sincerely hope that the revival is real, and that more pressing plants and better technology will evolve. i doubt it, but i can dream

My original late night rant was more to to the OP about the idea that colors and collectibility were all that matter to the community here at large, and that sound quality/mastering/source was not important to us. I think it very much is, otherwise we wouldn't even have the debate over it. I've avoided pressings that many on here have accused of being unlistenable, and i'm happy that there are people such as yourself with a finer tuned ear than mine to help educate the community at large.

That was my initial discomfort with @ninjur's question, that we care MORE about the package than the recording. that may be true on other boards, but i don't think it is here.

[ninjur]

First, I have no problem with color vinyl or adding great gatefold cover and other cool stuff. But unless the vinyl can deliver good soundquality all the job is, to me, useless. And if I would guess, most reissues today are from a CD or maybe the same digital source that was used for the CD. Like in the audiophile community, when they use the original analog tapes, they really want to use that in the advertisement. That is a selling point.
From what I have read, most don't say anything about the source for soundtracks.

One asked, "would you rather this music didn’t get released at all?" Well, I rather take a slower reissue rate, and things done right, than hundred of CD source cut vinyl. That just me.

Right now I'm extremly interested in Terror visions release of Killing Spress, from the original analog tapes). Hopefully it will be a killer.

[Pain_Bubbles]

I am generally not that bothered about LP's sourced from CD.
Although a higher resolution digital, or even analog source is often preferable, I can also imagine scenario's where it isn't: A 30 year old CD might actually be a better source than a 30 year (Or more) old Mastertape. Tape doesn't always age very well, and with soundtracks they are often stored/found in less than optimal conditions. (turn up in the attic of composers or collectors)

A CD can deliver sound quality that is, for all intents and purposes, perfect, and a perfect waveform can be (and IS, with any decent DAC) reconstructed from CD's somewhat limited resolution. CD specs exceed LP's on pretty much every point, and the few areas where vinyl has the advantage, are mostly theoretical.

So while I agree one should always go for the best possible sources, I have never heard any real downsides to LP's mastered from CD's, they still sound like vinyl to me.

[Occhionero]

Black Vinyl sounds better than colored? Listening (right now) to the "Escape from NY" by Silva Screen I have to doubt about it. The black vinyl comes very dirty and has a lot of pops and clicks. Not good!

[Bezulsqy]

I’m at work, but with not a lot to do… So this post got longer and longer…And maybe a bit off topic.

I can imagine when you are an audiophile and have the hearing that goes with that, you can easily hear all the differences in quality between different audio-sets and different releases of records. Probably with headphones on every plop or bit of surface noise is easily picked up. I am far from an audiophile. My hearing just isn’t that good. I wonder how many people listening to records really mind the occasional plop or surface noise (of course there are limits to everything ). I never listen with headphones and use a B&O record player, receiver and speakers from around 1978. On my system the sound quality for me is great for most releases. I find the coloured releases Waxwork, Mondo and Death Waltz sound really great. I don’t believe you can say they sound inferior to black vinyl. A lot of people hear what they want to hear. I love to see someone do a blind listening test with these new releases.
In the first comment Hatter made he says about the vinyl revival that it is largely about the sound quality. I don’t think that is true. I’m not starting a discussion about what medium has the best sound quality. You can find numerous threads on other forums about that. I don’t know what is and I don’t care. I think this revival fits in the broader vintage and retro vibe that is going on everywhere. From the retro bikes and vintage furniture to hair styles from the 50’s and 60’s. The last 20 years a lot that was made was not made to last and a lot just was made to throw away. People wanted clean and white interiors with no plants and stainless steel accents. Now they want the craftsmanship and high quality materials from the 60’back for their furniture. Living rooms are filled again with lots of green plants. Records are a part of that sort of romance… If I pay money for music it is much nicer to have a beautiful cover where the passion from the creators shines through, than for the music to be a line of text in my iPhone music app.
I listen to music on vinyl because of the experience I get when opening a record. Looking at the artwork, reading all the notes. Inspecting the vinyl. Putting it om my deck and seeing the needle drop. And the sound is terrific.
As with everything this revival is not going to last. I wonder how much of everything that is being pressed at the moment is actually being sold. When looking at the releases form last record store day, I can’t imagine that there really is a lasting market for most of those releases. How many re-issues can there be? Now That’s What I call Music? Or the soundtrack for Clueless and The Second Best Exotic Marigold Hotel on vinyl? In ten years probably something else comes along or the CD is back in fashion But there will always be people that just keep loving what they love now. And keep buying records.

Of course I can be wrong. I am one of those retro and vintage loving kids that was born in 1980. What do I know? I do know I am very happy that I can go home and turn my stereo on, seeing that little red illuminated B&O logo, put Cannibal Holocaust on and start watering all the plants in my living room.

[bpwlogan]

@Occhionero- That Sucks. Mine is on the way with Robocop from Soundstage Direct. I'm glad I kept my orange DW copy. I noticed on Soundstage Direct the price of EFNY has gone up $10 in the past month. There must have been a lot of demand for this release. Hopefully, you just received a bad copy and can get a replacement.

[Occhionero]

@bpwlogan: thumbs up for your copy!
@bezulsqy: a very long text

I would never say that black is better than colored. Maybe in masses yes, but I have so many great sounding colored wax. I can live with noises and cracks. Thats part of the vinyl thing for me.

In case of EFNY (Silva) there are just too many. Especially some that have some kind of rhythm during a quiet part of a song. That sucks. In this case I digitalize the album and use the DeClick/DeNoise Softwares - what is not in the sense of vinyl expirience

[deathwaltz]

Do we really need another of these threads two weeks after the last one
http://www.spintheblackestcircles.com/f ... k-thereof/
I am going to merge these two together

[bpwlogan]

@Spencer-Just merge them together and turn it into an epic novel. The posts are long enough.